Designer Interview: Derek Carver by cdwalkley
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Hi Derek. Thank you for taking the time to be interviewed for IGUK. You are quite well known in the UK for your work on some classic Games Workshop board games and many more gamers will recognise your name from the new version of Warrior Knights.
First of all, can you tell me a little more about some of your lesser known games? Are there any hidden gems out there that you are particularly proud of?
This question made me glance along the shelf where I keep my own games and the answer has to be ‘No’. I can’t see any ‘hidden gems’. Probably the best of the unpublished ones is town planning game and an election game. In fact, these two are linked in a very curious way. Some years back a town planning game by a very well-known games inventor was published in Germany. It so happened that my own town planning game was popular with a group in Berlin who had made copies of it (with my permission, of course). The similarity was instantly recognised and it was true that the said well-known inventor knew my game. So accusations of plagiarism resounded in the German gaming press – accusations that got lawyers of agents and publishers involved. At the time I was totally ignorant of all of this because German games took far longer to arrive over here in those days. But I remember the night I first played it at a friend’s house. We all recognised the great similarity. However, I greatly admired the inventor in question and rather than being cross about it I saw how extremely well my town planning game had been streamlined. So that same night, when I got home, I set to work totally re-inventing my election game, which was a monster of a game (although strangely popular despite that). I took it totally apart and the new streamlined version is totally different. In other words, I aimed at making the game that the said gentleman would have come up with had he given this one ‘the treatment’.
On a more personal level, which board games do you prefer to play yourself? How frequently do you get to play?
I have no distinct preference for any type. Although I suppose I sort of have an objection to games where a title has been dumped on them that merely deceives – the game having no connection whatsoever with the title. As for how often I play, we have a group that has met at our house regularly once a week for about 30 years (the group changing during the time, of course). My wife also enjoys gaming and we have other friends of like mind. So we also tend to play with them probably every two weeks. I should stress that we are also of the generation that played cards a lot. There are some wonderful cardgames out there (played both with normal and with special cards). Sadly for many groups, because these games come in small boxes they are regarded as ‘small’ games and relegated to an end of evening slot, when often they have more substance than many of the big box games.
Apart from board games, do you have time for other elements of the wider hobby (miniatures gaming, CCGs, role playing games)?
Now that I’m retired ‘time’ isn’t in short supply. But whilst we were D&D addicts when it first appeared here nearly 30 years ago, I no longer play role playing games (D&D ended up getting far too complicated anyway). I look wistfully at games like DOOM and DESCENT wondering whether they would recapture the great fun we had with D&D (our present gaming group never having gone through that phase) but I don’t own either of them so don’t know.
In many ways, the two versions of Warrior Knights can be seen as being at opposite ends of the spectrum. FFG have noted they see the new edition as being influenced by a more European style of gaming, where as the 'classic' edition has a reputation of leading to many marathon gaming sessions (or maybe that’s just the people I played with!).
Yes, we did tend to play much longer games in the 70s and 80s (think of DIPLOMACY, 1829, CIVILISATION – all of which date from that period) We were not youngsters then with lots of time on our hands – we all had families – but we would meet up after lunch at the weekend and play through. It’s hard to imagine that now – even though we have much more time. With the second set of rules for a ‘shorter’ Warrior Knights we find a 5-player game lasts between 4½ and 5 hours. When FF made the decision to republish it in a much changed form they aimed at a 2 hour game (which I considered impossible). Well, despite what it might say on the box, it seems to me that most folk allow about 4+ hours for a 5-player game, so it hasn’t changed much in that respect.
Are you a fan of 'German style' games or do you prefer the rule and time heavy 'old-school' games?
I enormously enjoy the so-called German games (even though I swore no more games involving ‘majorities’ would ever darken my games shelves). But there is also a place for the ‘heavies’. The wonderful DIE MACHER was a heavy but is one of the very few to come out of Germany (Splotter not being German). The excellent LA CITTÀ probably being a runner-up.
Are there any games which you consider to have been a particular inspiration to you, in terms of instilling you with a passion for the hobby, as a game player or as a designer?
Three games stand out. First was TOTOPOLY, which we played non-stop when I was a school boy. ( I also recognised the stupidity of the rule whereby despite it also being an investment/betting game it was the winner of the race who won the game. This probably being the start of my other great hobby – rule tweaking!!!) The next game to make an impact was FORMULA ONE which I remember us parents playing whilst camping with our extremely young families in the New Forest. This was the first game I had ever played where players moved without using any dice and I was instantly smitten. Finally there was KINGMAKER. I had become attracted to the more simple wargames (STALINGRAD, etc), which could hardly be called ‘fun’. KINGMAKE,R despite its flaws, brought in the fun and its influence can clearly be seen in WARRIOR KNIGHTS, which would have been quite a different game had KINGMAKER not come into my life.
More specifically, what were the major influences behind your original Warrior Knights?
The game started out with the core idea of the meetings of THE ASSEMBLY (an idea, I might add, that appeared again in my Town Planning game where the Town Council met to approve planning applications – most of the players by that time being developers!); the rest of the game was built around that. I was fascinated by the idea that players (each with their own furrow to plough) met together to vote on things that would benefit players (hopefully themselves!) or would disadvantage others (their opponents!) No similar idea existed in a game – or, at least, not to my knowledge. Much later that outstanding inventor Karl-Heinz Schmiel came out with his DAS REGELN WIR SCHONE! but in that game players changed the winning conditions. This was not allowed in WARRIOR KNIGHTS – the actual game rules being untouchable. (It is worth stressing, I think, that this central position of the Assembly has been watered down in the new version of the game; it having less impact on play than in the original) So when it came to building a game around this Assembly I went back into the early Middle Ages. Everything in the game (private armies, the uncertainty of warfare, income from ‘Concessions’, sending powerful nobles away as Ambassadors purely to get rid of them, etc.) came from that period. But I did stretch history just a bit when I raided Roman history for the position of the Veto holder at the Assembly (omitted from the new version). Quite a different philosophy prevailed in my approach to the game back in the 70s compared to what is evident in the new version. For example, the ability to change the outcome of events (even death!) by the use of ‘Faith’ tokens would have been anathema to me, and still is to some extent. But I recognise it as a good gaming idea and it is, after all, a game we are playing. So to summarise my answers to your question, the ‘major influences’ were the concept of the Assembly and wishing to recreate the feel of life and conflict in those early times.
I think part of what makes it a classic is how it successfully ties together realistic and important elements of medieval Europe (warfare, religion, politics/diplomacy, overseas exploration) into a satisfying game without the need for a vast and impenetrable rule book! How hard was this to achieve?
I don’t know how ‘hard it was to achieve’. The original Warrior Knights, whilst being a multi-layered game, was not a complicated game. Albie Fiore at Games Workshop and I worked extremely hard to make the rule book accessible. Having suffered rule books from Avalon Hill that made even instructions as how to play a simple game read like a military manual on how to drive a tank we were determined to make the game more accessible (and remember Games Workshop hadn’t produced a game of this complexity before). This is why we kept giving suggestions as to what to do on your first game, thereby, hopefully, saving excessive brain-ache. I still think it was the best rule book around at that time (despite the few errors that came to light later!)
Do you think that we might see some more of your games re-envisaged for a new generation? With FFG having re-made Warrior Knights (as well as other designer's works: Fury of Dracula, Arkham Horror) is there any chance of a new Blood Royale?!
As many gamers will know by now, I guess, BLOOD ROYAL (that incorrect final ‘E’ stuck on by Games Workshop has always bugged me!) was part of the Games Workshop/Fantasy Flight deal. But because BLOOD ROYAL was originally invented as a gaming system (a bit like the D&D rules were a ‘system’) I think FF will have their work cut out bringing it into the Euro fold. But we shall see.
(It is interesting to add that I was invited up to Games Workshop to discuss their making my NEW WORLD. We spent the whole day discussing this and they came up with some excellent ideas that I’m sure would have resulted in a splendid production (the physical quality of their games having much improved by then). It was only after we had got up to leave and Brian asked me whether I had any other games that BLOOD ROYAL got mentioned (called DYNASTIES at that time). The whole idea of - for the first time - marrying role playing with board gaming instantly appealed and NEW WORLD went out of the window; subsequently to be published by Avalon Hill in quite a different format.)
A more interesting question, I think, is if you have any new designs in the pipeline?
No. All of my games were invented for play by our group. None was ever invented with a thought of being published. But these days we are deluged with new – and extremely good games – that there’s no longer any pressure to invent new ones. At least, not for me there isn’t.
Can I ask you now about what you think of the current state of the hobby? Are we in a 'new age' of gaming or do you think modern games often rely more on their appearance rather than strategic depth?
I think the hobby is wonderfully healthy. Superb games are being published, but it is a commercial enterprise, after all, so is one that responds, like most things, to public exposure and not to mere enthusiasm. Its success in Germany is because the industry has got its act together. When I started playing games as an adult German games were unknown. But they now get massive press exposure there (witness their ‘Game of the Year’ award). Sadly, we prefer ‘knocking copy’ in the UK. So should a journalist choose to write about a game – usually around Christmas time – he’ll try to get as much humour out of it as he can by saying how far too complicated it is for him to understand. It always reminds me of one of the famous professors of history at Oxford some years back saying he didn’t have a TV because he wouldn’t know how to switch it on. Such a comment, I assume, was designed to convey to the British public that he’s a great intellectual as opposed to a total idiot. I always said that the UK games publishing industry needed to form a Trade Association to undertake PR work. But that’s now too late. We no longer have a games publishing industry to speak of. However, as an encouraging sign I spent my summer holiday in a small village in Switzerland last year. The local stationers/gift shop was stuffed with gamers’ games – and all cheaper than here in the UK even though they are not in the EU!
The relationship between designer and game company could be likened to that of director and film studio. In the whole of your experience, do you think the former pairing has as volatile a relationship as the latter often seems to?
I guess I have always been fortunate. As I mentioned, none of my games was invented with thoughts of publication. So it is true to say - remembering how different things were 20 years ago – that publishers have come to me either directly or indirectly. Since I did not look upon having a game published as a source of income (wisely, I might add!) my sole concern was to see the game published as I invented it. So in all of my contracts I had a clause whereby no change was to be made without my approval. I have to say that whilst they might have found this restriction irksome, and we did do battle on occasions, relations were always very friendly. So I had no problem in that regard. As for the new version of WARRIOR KNIGHTS, this is quite different. I fully recognised that the new publisher would want to make changes. Since the game already existed in the form I invented it I no longer minded what changes were made. So I had no part at all in the new version. (This perhaps made me appreciate what it felt to be like as an author of a book that somebody is turning into a film!) In fact, when I received a copy of the game it was as new to me as it was to somebody going into the shop and buying it. A most strange feeling. But a flattering one.
Thanks very much for taking the time to answer IGUK’s questions, Derek.
Interview by Chris Walkley
Hi Derek. Thank you for taking the time to be interviewed for IGUK. You are quite well known in the UK for your work on some classic Games Workshop board games and many more gamers will recognise your name from the new version of Warrior Knights.First of all, can you tell me a little more about some of your lesser known games? Are there any hidden gems out there that you are particularly proud of?
This question made me glance along the shelf where I keep my own games and the answer has to be ‘No’. I can’t see any ‘hidden gems’. Probably the best of the unpublished ones is town planning game and an election game. In fact, these two are linked in a very curious way. Some years back a town planning game by a very well-known games inventor was published in Germany. It so happened that my own town planning game was popular with a group in Berlin who had made copies of it (with my permission, of course). The similarity was instantly recognised and it was true that the said well-known inventor knew my game. So accusations of plagiarism resounded in the German gaming press – accusations that got lawyers of agents and publishers involved. At the time I was totally ignorant of all of this because German games took far longer to arrive over here in those days. But I remember the night I first played it at a friend’s house. We all recognised the great similarity. However, I greatly admired the inventor in question and rather than being cross about it I saw how extremely well my town planning game had been streamlined. So that same night, when I got home, I set to work totally re-inventing my election game, which was a monster of a game (although strangely popular despite that). I took it totally apart and the new streamlined version is totally different. In other words, I aimed at making the game that the said gentleman would have come up with had he given this one ‘the treatment’.
On a more personal level, which board games do you prefer to play yourself? How frequently do you get to play?
I have no distinct preference for any type. Although I suppose I sort of have an objection to games where a title has been dumped on them that merely deceives – the game having no connection whatsoever with the title. As for how often I play, we have a group that has met at our house regularly once a week for about 30 years (the group changing during the time, of course). My wife also enjoys gaming and we have other friends of like mind. So we also tend to play with them probably every two weeks. I should stress that we are also of the generation that played cards a lot. There are some wonderful cardgames out there (played both with normal and with special cards). Sadly for many groups, because these games come in small boxes they are regarded as ‘small’ games and relegated to an end of evening slot, when often they have more substance than many of the big box games.
Apart from board games, do you have time for other elements of the wider hobby (miniatures gaming, CCGs, role playing games)?
Now that I’m retired ‘time’ isn’t in short supply. But whilst we were D&D addicts when it first appeared here nearly 30 years ago, I no longer play role playing games (D&D ended up getting far too complicated anyway). I look wistfully at games like DOOM and DESCENT wondering whether they would recapture the great fun we had with D&D (our present gaming group never having gone through that phase) but I don’t own either of them so don’t know.
In many ways, the two versions of Warrior Knights can be seen as being at opposite ends of the spectrum. FFG have noted they see the new edition as being influenced by a more European style of gaming, where as the 'classic' edition has a reputation of leading to many marathon gaming sessions (or maybe that’s just the people I played with!).Yes, we did tend to play much longer games in the 70s and 80s (think of DIPLOMACY, 1829, CIVILISATION – all of which date from that period) We were not youngsters then with lots of time on our hands – we all had families – but we would meet up after lunch at the weekend and play through. It’s hard to imagine that now – even though we have much more time. With the second set of rules for a ‘shorter’ Warrior Knights we find a 5-player game lasts between 4½ and 5 hours. When FF made the decision to republish it in a much changed form they aimed at a 2 hour game (which I considered impossible). Well, despite what it might say on the box, it seems to me that most folk allow about 4+ hours for a 5-player game, so it hasn’t changed much in that respect.
Are you a fan of 'German style' games or do you prefer the rule and time heavy 'old-school' games?
I enormously enjoy the so-called German games (even though I swore no more games involving ‘majorities’ would ever darken my games shelves). But there is also a place for the ‘heavies’. The wonderful DIE MACHER was a heavy but is one of the very few to come out of Germany (Splotter not being German). The excellent LA CITTÀ probably being a runner-up.
Are there any games which you consider to have been a particular inspiration to you, in terms of instilling you with a passion for the hobby, as a game player or as a designer?
Three games stand out. First was TOTOPOLY, which we played non-stop when I was a school boy. ( I also recognised the stupidity of the rule whereby despite it also being an investment/betting game it was the winner of the race who won the game. This probably being the start of my other great hobby – rule tweaking!!!) The next game to make an impact was FORMULA ONE which I remember us parents playing whilst camping with our extremely young families in the New Forest. This was the first game I had ever played where players moved without using any dice and I was instantly smitten. Finally there was KINGMAKER. I had become attracted to the more simple wargames (STALINGRAD, etc), which could hardly be called ‘fun’. KINGMAKE,R despite its flaws, brought in the fun and its influence can clearly be seen in WARRIOR KNIGHTS, which would have been quite a different game had KINGMAKER not come into my life.
More specifically, what were the major influences behind your original Warrior Knights?
The game started out with the core idea of the meetings of THE ASSEMBLY (an idea, I might add, that appeared again in my Town Planning game where the Town Council met to approve planning applications – most of the players by that time being developers!); the rest of the game was built around that. I was fascinated by the idea that players (each with their own furrow to plough) met together to vote on things that would benefit players (hopefully themselves!) or would disadvantage others (their opponents!) No similar idea existed in a game – or, at least, not to my knowledge. Much later that outstanding inventor Karl-Heinz Schmiel came out with his DAS REGELN WIR SCHONE! but in that game players changed the winning conditions. This was not allowed in WARRIOR KNIGHTS – the actual game rules being untouchable. (It is worth stressing, I think, that this central position of the Assembly has been watered down in the new version of the game; it having less impact on play than in the original) So when it came to building a game around this Assembly I went back into the early Middle Ages. Everything in the game (private armies, the uncertainty of warfare, income from ‘Concessions’, sending powerful nobles away as Ambassadors purely to get rid of them, etc.) came from that period. But I did stretch history just a bit when I raided Roman history for the position of the Veto holder at the Assembly (omitted from the new version). Quite a different philosophy prevailed in my approach to the game back in the 70s compared to what is evident in the new version. For example, the ability to change the outcome of events (even death!) by the use of ‘Faith’ tokens would have been anathema to me, and still is to some extent. But I recognise it as a good gaming idea and it is, after all, a game we are playing. So to summarise my answers to your question, the ‘major influences’ were the concept of the Assembly and wishing to recreate the feel of life and conflict in those early times.
I think part of what makes it a classic is how it successfully ties together realistic and important elements of medieval Europe (warfare, religion, politics/diplomacy, overseas exploration) into a satisfying game without the need for a vast and impenetrable rule book! How hard was this to achieve?
I don’t know how ‘hard it was to achieve’. The original Warrior Knights, whilst being a multi-layered game, was not a complicated game. Albie Fiore at Games Workshop and I worked extremely hard to make the rule book accessible. Having suffered rule books from Avalon Hill that made even instructions as how to play a simple game read like a military manual on how to drive a tank we were determined to make the game more accessible (and remember Games Workshop hadn’t produced a game of this complexity before). This is why we kept giving suggestions as to what to do on your first game, thereby, hopefully, saving excessive brain-ache. I still think it was the best rule book around at that time (despite the few errors that came to light later!)
Do you think that we might see some more of your games re-envisaged for a new generation? With FFG having re-made Warrior Knights (as well as other designer's works: Fury of Dracula, Arkham Horror) is there any chance of a new Blood Royale?!As many gamers will know by now, I guess, BLOOD ROYAL (that incorrect final ‘E’ stuck on by Games Workshop has always bugged me!) was part of the Games Workshop/Fantasy Flight deal. But because BLOOD ROYAL was originally invented as a gaming system (a bit like the D&D rules were a ‘system’) I think FF will have their work cut out bringing it into the Euro fold. But we shall see.
(It is interesting to add that I was invited up to Games Workshop to discuss their making my NEW WORLD. We spent the whole day discussing this and they came up with some excellent ideas that I’m sure would have resulted in a splendid production (the physical quality of their games having much improved by then). It was only after we had got up to leave and Brian asked me whether I had any other games that BLOOD ROYAL got mentioned (called DYNASTIES at that time). The whole idea of - for the first time - marrying role playing with board gaming instantly appealed and NEW WORLD went out of the window; subsequently to be published by Avalon Hill in quite a different format.)
A more interesting question, I think, is if you have any new designs in the pipeline?
No. All of my games were invented for play by our group. None was ever invented with a thought of being published. But these days we are deluged with new – and extremely good games – that there’s no longer any pressure to invent new ones. At least, not for me there isn’t.
Can I ask you now about what you think of the current state of the hobby? Are we in a 'new age' of gaming or do you think modern games often rely more on their appearance rather than strategic depth?
I think the hobby is wonderfully healthy. Superb games are being published, but it is a commercial enterprise, after all, so is one that responds, like most things, to public exposure and not to mere enthusiasm. Its success in Germany is because the industry has got its act together. When I started playing games as an adult German games were unknown. But they now get massive press exposure there (witness their ‘Game of the Year’ award). Sadly, we prefer ‘knocking copy’ in the UK. So should a journalist choose to write about a game – usually around Christmas time – he’ll try to get as much humour out of it as he can by saying how far too complicated it is for him to understand. It always reminds me of one of the famous professors of history at Oxford some years back saying he didn’t have a TV because he wouldn’t know how to switch it on. Such a comment, I assume, was designed to convey to the British public that he’s a great intellectual as opposed to a total idiot. I always said that the UK games publishing industry needed to form a Trade Association to undertake PR work. But that’s now too late. We no longer have a games publishing industry to speak of. However, as an encouraging sign I spent my summer holiday in a small village in Switzerland last year. The local stationers/gift shop was stuffed with gamers’ games – and all cheaper than here in the UK even though they are not in the EU!
The relationship between designer and game company could be likened to that of director and film studio. In the whole of your experience, do you think the former pairing has as volatile a relationship as the latter often seems to?
I guess I have always been fortunate. As I mentioned, none of my games was invented with thoughts of publication. So it is true to say - remembering how different things were 20 years ago – that publishers have come to me either directly or indirectly. Since I did not look upon having a game published as a source of income (wisely, I might add!) my sole concern was to see the game published as I invented it. So in all of my contracts I had a clause whereby no change was to be made without my approval. I have to say that whilst they might have found this restriction irksome, and we did do battle on occasions, relations were always very friendly. So I had no problem in that regard. As for the new version of WARRIOR KNIGHTS, this is quite different. I fully recognised that the new publisher would want to make changes. Since the game already existed in the form I invented it I no longer minded what changes were made. So I had no part at all in the new version. (This perhaps made me appreciate what it felt to be like as an author of a book that somebody is turning into a film!) In fact, when I received a copy of the game it was as new to me as it was to somebody going into the shop and buying it. A most strange feeling. But a flattering one.
Thanks very much for taking the time to answer IGUK’s questions, Derek.
Interview by Chris Walkley
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